Commit 23b0ca6f authored by anonym's avatar anonym
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Add minutes/logs for the March 2018 monthly meeting.

parent 100ac104
[[!meta title="March 2018 online meeting"]]
[[!toc levels=2]]
# Meta
- Attendees: anonym, intrigeri
- Semi-attending: emmapeel, sajolida, segfault, spriver
- [[Logs|201803/log.txt]]
# Volunteers to handle "Hole in the roof" tickets this month
* anonym: I'm already/still on [[!tails_ticket 5447]].
* intrigeri: I've closed [[!tails_ticket 8690]] today after failing to
reproduce the problem => one less hole in the roof. :) I won't take
any other this month.
* segfault: regarding hole in the roof, I have [[!tails_ticket 12146]]
(which I don't expect to work on until we have a plan for
[[!tails_ticket 15292]]) and won't take any other.
# Volunteers to handle important tickets flagged for next release, but without assignee
There was only [[!tails_ticket 15308]] which emmapeel will find an
assignee for.
# Availability and plans until the next meeting
* anonym:
- Availability: 8-11 March: vacation, 12-15 March: Tor dev @ rome,
then it is "office hours" for the rest of March.
- Plans: attempt to get #15281 into shape for Tails 3.7 (which
probably means shipping a 3.7~rc1), upstream our Thunderbird stuff
finally #6156, test suite stuff, finish reviewing Tails Server
* emmapeel:
- Availability: ?
- Plans: this week, here in valencia, and when back home, look at
the ASP docs with sajolida, and soon i am in shift again. also
weblate
* intrigeri:
- Availability: mostly unavailable until March 19, then back.
- Plans: deal with my core work, avoid accumulating too much
backlog, Tor meeting in Rome, and that's all.
* sajolida:
- Availability: I'm here.
- Plans: 3.6, apply to NLNet with our USB image project (and a bit
more budget), close the Tails Verification saga, core work & OTF
features, do interesting stuff with the rest of my technical
writing budget for this quarter. Start to slowing organize the
summit 2018.
* segfault:
- Availability: I will be mostly available.
- Plans: Fix the issues assigned to me for 3.6, work on
[[!tails_ticket 14468]] subtasks, and Tails Server.
* spriver:
- Availability is: nearly everyday given my current situation.
- Plans: I started working on [[!tails_ticket 14567]] and currently
one child. also I'm planning to get some translation work done.
# Important missing bits in the next monthly report
The SponsorW bits are missing, which segfault will add within a day
from the meeting.
# Brainstorming: how Tor could support us more/better?
We brainstormed a list of suggestions/topics for intrigeri to bring to
Shari at the Tor meeting in Rome next week. The list contain some
semi-sensitive items, so we chose to not make it public (note: the URL
was shared on the channel).
# Strategic planning: is "Don't have to trust your hardware" an existing benefit of Tails ?
At the Tails Summit 2017 it was added to the "benefits" category; it
got one +1 dot and two -1 dots. Those of us attending the meeting
failed to see how Tails differs substantially from other OSes in this
respect, and suspect it was added in error, formulated the wrong way,
or put in the wrong category (perhaps it was intended as a goal?). We
decided to drop it (some might want to keep it as a goal, but we
almost had that discussion, and it seemed the way we were headed would
be to greatly have to reduce the scope of that promise).
(At best Tails raises the bar for Evil Maids so they are forced to
attack hardware/firmware since the Tails installation is portable and
thus can be carried with the user at all times, so kernel/initrd/OS
attacks can be protected against.)
(07:00:36 PM) intrigeri: meeting time!
(07:00:39 PM) intrigeri: who's here?
(07:00:53 PM) intrigeri: agenda: https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/monthly_meeting/
(07:00:57 PM) sajolida entered the room.
(07:01:05 PM) intrigeri: we have a facilitator (myself) but we need a notetaker
(07:01:20 PM) emmapeel: hello!
(07:01:22 PM) sajolida: hi!
(07:01:25 PM) intrigeri: https://tails.boum.org/contribute/meetings/#index2h1 tells how to take notes.
(07:01:42 PM) sajolida: i'm probably not going to be here the whole time, i'm in a park right now and have a UX meetup at 19:30
(07:03:02 PM) anonym: here for the meeting now!
(07:03:35 PM) anonym: worst case I take notes again
(07:04:11 PM) kibi left the room (Machine going to sleep).
(07:04:23 PM) intrigeri: anonym: there you go then
(07:04:26 PM) intrigeri: let's start.
(07:04:34 PM) intrigeri: agenda is at https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/monthly_meeting/
(07:04:40 PM) intrigeri: first topic: Volunteers to handle "Hole in the roof (https://labs.riseup.net/code/versions/198)" tickets this month
(07:05:16 PM) intrigeri: I've closed #8690 today after failing to reproduce the problem => one less hole in the roof :)
(07:05:17 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #8690: tails-install-iuk's output is not forwarded to the Upgrader error reporting https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/8690
(07:05:33 PM) intrigeri: I won't take any other this month.
(07:05:38 PM) anonym: I'm already/still on #5447
(07:05:38 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #5447: Fix DVD eject at shutdown (on some computers) https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/5447
(07:06:44 PM) intrigeri: If you already know you won't take a hole in the roof, please say so to avoid meeting deadlock :)
(07:06:45 PM) anonym: who's here for the meeting?
(07:07:01 PM) sajolida: i won't
(07:07:09 PM) anonym: drwhax, emmapeel, gagz, groente, hybridwipe, kwadronaut, muri, nodens, segfault, spriver: ?
(07:07:21 PM) spriver: I am (expect 75% felt brain capacity)
(07:07:33 PM) segfault: I will try to participate
(07:07:40 PM) emmapeel: i am but also with some contributors here... not here
(07:07:46 PM) emmapeel: not so much here i mean
(07:08:17 PM) segfault: regarding hole in the roof, I have #12146 (which I don't expect to work on until we have a plan for #15292) and won't take any other
(07:08:17 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Bug #12146: Tails installed using dd is not seen as a bootable device on MacBook Pro - Tails - RiseupLabs Code Repository https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/12146
(07:08:18 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #15292: Distribute a USB image https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/15292
(07:09:12 PM) anonym: so only me and intrigeri are here 100%? I suspect this meeting will be frustrating, we'll see..
(07:09:31 PM) intrigeri: OK, let's assume this specific set of attendees knows the list of holes in the roof already and let's not wait more than 5 min.
(07:09:39 PM) spriver: ack
(07:09:40 PM) intrigeri: next topic: Volunteers to handle important tickets flagged for next release, but without assignee
(07:09:43 PM) intrigeri: let me cook a url.
(07:10:28 PM) intrigeri: only https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/15308 on that list
(07:10:29 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #15308: Cannot update database schemes in translate.lizard https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/15308
(07:10:58 PM) intrigeri: emmapeel: I suspect that won't be done in time for 3.6 without an assignee => could you please do something with the metadata of this ticket?
(07:11:03 PM) intrigeri: next topic then!
(07:11:09 PM) emmapeel: sure intrigeri
(07:11:17 PM) intrigeri: next topic: "Availability and plans until the next meeting"
(07:11:19 PM) intrigeri: emmapeel: :)))
(07:12:14 PM) spriver: I started working on #14567 (https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/14567) and currently one child
(07:12:14 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #14567: Investigate mobile messaging applications - Tails - RiseupLabs Code Repository https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/14567
(07:12:39 PM) intrigeri: availability: mostly unavailable until March 19, then back. plans: deal with my core work, avoid accumulating too much backlog, and that's all.
(07:12:45 PM) spriver: also I'm planning to get some translation work done
(07:12:57 PM) segfault: I plan to fix the issues assigned to me for 3.6, work on #14468 subtasks, and Tails Server. I will be mostly available.
(07:12:58 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #14468: Add VeraCrypt support to Tails https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/14468
(07:13:14 PM) spriver: availability is: nearly everyday given my current situation
(07:13:43 PM) sajolida: Availability: I'm here. Plans: 3.6, apply to NLNet with our USB image project (and a bit more budget), close the Tails Verification saga, core work & OTF features, do interesting stuff with the rest of my technical writing budget for this quarter.
(07:14:48 PM) intrigeri: plans++: Tor meeting in Rome.
(07:15:02 PM) anonym: availability: 8-11 March: vacation, 12-15 March: Tor dev @ rome, then it is "office hours" for the rest of March
plans: attempt to get #15281 into shape for Tails 3.7 (which probably means shipping a 3.7~rc1), upstream our Thunderbird stuff finally #6156, test suite stuff, finish reviewing Tails Server
(07:15:03 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #15281: Stack one single SquashFS diff when upgrading https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/15281
(07:15:05 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #6156: Upstream secure Icedove autoconfig wizard https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/6156
(07:16:13 PM) sajolida: spriver: so cool that you are working on #14567!
(07:16:38 PM) spriver: sajolida: thanks!
(07:17:00 PM) sajolida: Plans++: start to slowing organize the summit 2018
(07:17:14 PM) emmapeel: plans: this week, here in valencia, and when back home, look at the ASP docs with sajolida, and soon i am in shift again. also weblate
(07:19:49 PM) intrigeri: OK, next topic then
(07:20:01 PM) intrigeri: Important missing bits in the next monthly report (https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/monthly_report/).
(07:20:19 PM) intrigeri: well, we got pinged over email a couple times already, but still that's a possibly useful reminder
(07:20:38 PM) intrigeri: if there's something you really want to see in that report and it's not there: now is a good time to notice :)
(07:20:57 PM) sajolida: off-topic: I'm more worried about the report for SponsorW which is still empty → https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/SponsorW/2018_02/
(07:20:57 PM) intrigeri: here it is: https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/monthly_report/report_2018_02/
(07:21:21 PM) intrigeri: sajolida: right. let me chat about this with segfault later.
(07:21:22 PM) segfault: sajolida: I will add my bits until tomorrow afternoon
(07:21:29 PM) intrigeri: perfect!
(07:21:35 PM) anonym: I've been postponing writing something for #15281
(07:21:36 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #15281: Stack one single SquashFS diff when upgrading https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/15281
(07:21:45 PM) intrigeri: anonym: I've added something about it.
(07:21:47 PM) sajolida: segfault: cooool!
(07:21:58 PM) intrigeri: anonym: "We made plans to improve the upgrade user experience:"
(07:23:07 PM) anonym: intrigeri: great! unfortunate that I couldn't manage to do something for the report for once :/
(07:24:09 PM) intrigeri: anyone needs more time to look at the report?
(07:24:22 PM) segfault: no
(07:26:04 PM) intrigeri: OK, next topic
(07:26:33 PM) intrigeri: tell me if I'm rushing things too much — with so many people who said they are not 100% here I won't wait for everyone to notice something is being asked.
(07:26:54 PM) sajolida: go go go!
(07:26:58 PM) spriver: go
(07:27:00 PM) intrigeri: We have 2 discussions on the agenda: one brainstorming and one topic from strategic planning.
(07:27:53 PM) anonym: the brainstorming sounds more open-ended, so strategic planning first?
(07:28:15 PM) intrigeri: I say let's take 10 minutes (+5 optionnal minutes if we feel they will help us) to brainstorm. then strategic planning. and if we have time we can come back to the brainstorming output and triage/prioritize.
(07:28:36 PM) intrigeri: anonym: naah, I don't want a brainstorming without any kind of time limit. the output is open-ended, not the format :)
(07:28:52 PM) intrigeri: So, Brainstorming: how Tor could support us more/better?
(07:28:56 PM) intrigeri: Context: intrigeri will discuss this topic with the Tor leadership at the Tor meeting in March
(07:29:04 PM) intrigeri: Expected output: a raw, unfiltered, non-prioritized list of ideas.
(07:29:17 PM) intrigeri: I'll create a pad otherwise our dear notetaker will suffer.
(07:29:28 PM) intrigeri: https://pad.riseup.net/p/MLkltlwFwdzH
(07:29:34 PM) anonym: intrigeri: ❤
(07:29:53 PM) intrigeri: anonym: your job will be to copy-paste whatever is in there into the minutes (unless we manage to do something better about it)
(07:30:05 PM) anonym: intrigeri: ack!
(07:31:14 PM) intrigeri: add your stuff there. we have until 19:40 Berlin time.
(07:31:27 PM) intrigeri: if the question is unclear, ask me
(07:36:04 PM) nodens left the room (Disconnected: closed).
(07:36:07 PM) nodens entered the room.
(07:40:34 PM) intrigeri: time's up!
(07:40:52 PM) intrigeri: does anyone feel they would add useful stuff given 5 more minutes?
(07:41:36 PM) intrigeri: not me. I won't add much more.
(07:41:49 PM) intrigeri: anonym, emmapeel, sajolida, segfault: ^
(07:42:05 PM) segfault: no
(07:42:13 PM) sajolida: nah... i'm not very inspired, I'm sorry :)
(07:42:59 PM) intrigeri: OK, thanks! that will be useful.
(07:43:42 PM) intrigeri: anonym: I'm not sure how this should be captured in the notes, not 100% sure we should dump all that on our website.
(07:44:02 PM) intrigeri: anonym: but please at least send me a dump of the pad after the meeting. looks like people are still editing it..
(07:44:02 PM) anonym: intrigeri: ack, so perhaps you just take it yourself now?
(07:44:12 PM) anonym: intrigeri: ok, will do that!
(07:44:14 PM) intrigeri: well, if it was frozen, yes, but apparently it's not.
(07:44:15 PM) intrigeri: thanks
(07:44:21 PM) intrigeri: we have 15 min left
(07:44:32 PM) intrigeri: I think it might be enough for the strategic planning thing
(07:44:37 PM) anonym: yup
(07:44:45 PM) intrigeri: Strategic planning (https://tails.boum.org/blueprint/strategic_planning/): is "Don't have to trust your hardware" a goal? Someone proposed it as a goal at the Tails Summit 2017, in the benefits category; it got one +1 dot and two -1 dots.
(07:44:47 PM) sajolida: I'm going to go to my UX meetup... See you!
(07:45:27 PM) segfault: I think it is a desirable goal, but not a realistic one
(07:45:47 PM) spriver: woah the bar is high for this one
(07:45:53 PM) anonym: agreed.
(07:45:55 PM) spriver: if even possible
(07:45:56 PM) intrigeri: meta: I picked one that likely will be easy to give #14502 a try. I think it was probably poorly phrased and the person who wrote it down may have meant something else than what I understand. but whatever, let's discuss it as we understand it.
(07:45:56 PM) Tailsbot: Tails ☺ Feature #14502: Ensure the output of the Strategic Planning session (Tails Summit 2017) is discussed - Tails - RiseupLabs Code Repository https://labs.riseup.net/code/issues/14502
(07:46:14 PM) segfault: "Reduce trust into your hardware" would be a bit more realistic
(07:46:19 PM) spriver: ack
(07:46:34 PM) intrigeri: FTR "benefits" == why should users care: for example, answers to "why should I put that much effort into getting started with Tails?" such as "it feels good to use a computer that behaves the way I legitimately expect"
(07:47:00 PM) intrigeri: sorry, it was not proposed as a goal but as a already existing benefit.
(07:47:25 PM) segfault: what
(07:47:28 PM) segfault: ok
(07:47:34 PM) intrigeri: so the question is: is "Don't have to trust your hardware" a benefit Tails already provides, that makes it worth it to users to bother using Tails.
(07:48:05 PM) spriver: hm okay
(07:48:05 PM) intrigeri: to me, it's quite obviously *not* something we provide at the moment, understood with a strict definition of "hardware".
(07:48:15 PM) segfault: agreed
(07:48:56 PM) intrigeri: (I suspect the person who wrote it meant "don't have to trust the OS that's on your hard disk" but whatever, let's stick to what is written)
(07:49:10 PM) intrigeri: anyone wants to argue in favour of this being a benefit of Tails?
(07:49:54 PM) anonym: *sound of crickets*
(07:50:31 PM) intrigeri: my argument for saying "it's not" is the following: we do basically nothing more (if anything at all) than other OS'es to protect against hardware that's controled by an adversary. so it cannot possibly be a good reason to start using Tails.
(07:50:35 PM) emmapeel: well, yes
(07:50:59 PM) emmapeel: it would be great.. but is that possible? or maybe a lot of work?
(07:51:16 PM) intrigeri: emmapeel: the question is: is "Don't have to trust your hardware" a benefit Tails already provides, that makes it worth it to users to bother using Tails.
(07:51:32 PM) intrigeri: emmapeel: sorry I got it wrong initially + on the agenda :/
(07:51:37 PM) intrigeri: emmapeel: my bad!
(07:52:25 PM) emmapeel: ok
(07:53:18 PM) anonym: let's proceed as if everyone agrees
(07:53:25 PM) spriver: oui
(07:53:36 PM) anonym: the delays make the real discussion we want to have impossible
(07:53:37 PM) intrigeri: a counter-argument would be: compared to an OS on disk, if I keep my Tails USB stick in a safe place, the attacker must attack my laptop's firmware
(07:53:59 PM) intrigeri: which is harder / more expensive than hacking my initrd.
(07:54:13 PM) spriver: ack
(07:54:46 PM) intrigeri: anyway, doesn't make me change my mind wrt. the actual phrasing.
(07:55:13 PM) intrigeri: anonym: please capture the argument(s?) we have for removing it so you can justify your commit when you drop that line from the strategic planning blueprint.
(07:55:23 PM) intrigeri: OK, we have 4 min left
(07:55:46 PM) anonym: intrigeri: ack!
(07:55:59 PM) spriver: <commercial time>
(07:56:02 PM) nodens left the room (Disconnected: No route to host).
(07:56:05 PM) spriver: </joke>
(07:56:11 PM) anonym: spriver: :)
(07:56:20 PM) intrigeri: I suggest we take time to read the brainstorming pad and if anything feels wrong, let me know before the end of the week so I refrain from using it when I meet with Shari.
(07:57:03 PM) anonym: ... which I guess concludes this meeting?
(07:57:16 PM) kibi entered the room.
(07:57:31 PM) intrigeri: And wrt. the AffectsTails keyword that "we are not using": I dunno who "we" is but I'm adding it quite consistently to every Trac ticket we're tracking on our side / that I feel worth it to suggest Tor folks to prioritize.
(07:57:51 PM) intrigeri: anonym: I meant "please read the pad now until the end of the meeting"
(07:58:05 PM) anonym: intrigeri: I was talking about the TailsNeeds keyword
(07:58:09 PM) intrigeri: because I doubt $we'll do it later. but whatever :)
(07:58:46 PM) intrigeri: anonym: TailsNeeds? what's that? I don't remember hearing about it. Where is it documented?
(07:58:54 PM) emmapeel left the room (Stream reset by peer).
(07:59:25 PM) anonym: intrigeri: nickm told us about it, and I have a vague memory of you saying that we should document it :P
(07:59:40 PM) anonym: (at Tor dev in Amsterdam)
(07:59:47 PM) emmapeel entered the room.
(07:59:53 PM) anonym: TBH, I just remembered it out of nowhere :)
(08:00:10 PM) intrigeri: anonym: OK, so it was an idea for something that does not exist. got it.
(08:01:17 PM) anonym: intrigeri: sort of. I think he meant that at least he will take it seriously. so I guess it currently mostly is about little-t tor
(08:01:47 PM) anonym: IIRC they do things like TorBrowserNeeds internally
(08:01:49 PM) sajolida left the room (Disconnected: closed).
(08:02:24 PM) anonym: according to the clock, the meeting is over
(08:02:39 PM) intrigeri: I'm unconvinced we need a technical solution to what looks like a social/communication problem, but whatever. Thanks for reminding me of that discussion you were having with nickm and that IIRC I briefly joined!
(08:02:43 PM) intrigeri: yes, meeting over!
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